[2011-05-08 21:37:57] -!- INOPIAE 
[Marcus@xdsl-89-0-128-218.netcologne.de] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 21:38:05] <BennyBaumann> 21:36 -!- law is now known as 
MarioLipinski
[2011-05-08 21:38:17] <BennyBaumann> Sorry, wrong key ^^
[2011-05-08 21:39:06] -!- Sie sind nun bekannt als: MarcusMaengel
[2011-05-08 21:39:44] <IanGrigg> yawn! good morning all
[2011-05-08 21:39:51] <IanGrigg> 05:40 here :(
[2011-05-08 21:40:13] <MarcusMaengel> Hi Ian goog morning, the sun is 
just setting
[2011-05-08 21:40:17] <WernerDworak> Here it is 21:40
[2011-05-08 21:40:42] <IanGrigg> ah good ... it'll be getting here soon 
then :)
[2011-05-08 21:41:04] <IanGrigg> g'moin Marcus, g'moin Werner
[2011-05-08 21:41:58] -!- BenediktHeintel 
[rats@ip-109-90-23-144.unitymediagroup.de] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 21:42:11] <BenediktHeintel> hi there
[2011-05-08 21:42:14] -!- mode/#SGM [+vvv BennyBaumann DorisSteinbichler 
IanGrigg] von MarioLipinski
[2011-05-08 21:42:14] -!- mode/#SGM [+vv JanDittberner JSFrederick] von 
MarioLipinski
[2011-05-08 21:42:19] <DorisSteinbichler> servus from vienna
[2011-05-08 21:42:46] <JSFrederick> Good afternoon from the US
[2011-05-08 21:42:49] <BennyBaumann> Hi from Mittweida ;-)
[2011-05-08 21:42:50] -!- MarioLipinski ist nun bekannt als: law
[2011-05-08 21:43:00] <BenediktHeintel> in this case: Hello from DArmstadt
[2011-05-08 21:43:06] -!- Nik [Nik@merlin.naturalnet.de] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 21:43:18] -!- Nik ist nun bekannt als: DominikGeorge
[2011-05-08 21:44:05] <JanDittberner> hello from Dresden
[2011-05-08 21:44:07] -!- Fabian ist nun bekannt als: FabianKnopf
[2011-05-08 21:44:18] <WernerDworak> Hallo Mario, gibst Du mich asuch frei
[2011-05-08 21:44:33] <IanGrigg> yawns from down under
[2011-05-08 21:44:51] <BenediktHeintel> poor iang
[2011-05-08 21:45:09] <law> An sich würde ich das gerne, aber mein IRC 
Client gibt da sehr eingeschränkt Rückmeldung...
[2011-05-08 21:45:22] -!- mode/#SGM [+vvv MarcusMaengel MatthiasSubik 
WernerDworak] von law
[2011-05-08 21:45:24] <DominikGeorge> law, what do I have to do to 
revoke my proxy assignation?
[2011-05-08 21:45:39] <DominikGeorge> and can you voice me as well please ;)
[2011-05-08 21:45:39] <JSFrederick> /join #sap jomai
[2011-05-08 21:45:41] <law> If you are just here, nothing I would say.
[2011-05-08 21:46:12] -!- MichaelTaenzer 
[neo@f053214057.adsl.alicedsl.de] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 21:46:50] <BennyBaumann> JSFrederick: Doesn't work for me: 
Bad channel key
[2011-05-08 21:46:57] <JSFrederick> sorry mistake
[2011-05-08 21:47:10] <JSFrederick> I was on another IRC server and 
mixed up the info
[2011-05-08 21:47:13] <DominikGeorge> JSFriedrich, I am certain the 
password was not meant to be made public ...
[2011-05-08 21:47:22] -!- mode/#SGM [+vvv BenediktHeintel DominikGeorge 
FabianKnopf] von law
[2011-05-08 21:47:23] -!- mode/#SGM [+v MichaelTaenzer] von law
[2011-05-08 21:47:31] <DominikGeorge> JSFridrich, it was e-mailed to a 
select list of recipient, according to my inbox ,)
[2011-05-08 21:47:42] <JSFrederick> sorry, my fault
[2011-05-08 21:47:51] <JSFrederick> I was mistaken and typed in the 
wrong window
[2011-05-08 21:47:55] <DominikGeorge> btw, it's incrrect .... dunno why :o
[2011-05-08 21:48:36] <DominikGeorge> JSFriedrich, would have worked in 
that window if there hadn't been whitespace at the beginning ;)
[2011-05-08 21:49:21] <JSFrederick> I was copying it to a text file and 
mistakenly pasted it into this window
[2011-05-08 21:49:43] -!- LH [LambertHof@k30092.upc-k.chello.nl] hat 
#SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 21:50:02] <BenediktHeintel> please do this in private guys, 
I really don't care about this ;)
[2011-05-08 21:50:39] <DominikGeorge> when does the meetingstart?
[2011-05-08 21:50:46] <BenediktHeintel> 10min
[2011-05-08 21:51:30] <law> hmm... I am missing VoteBot...
[2011-05-08 21:51:44] <IanGrigg> there is #vote
[2011-05-08 21:52:11] <IanGrigg> or do you mean the running program?
[2011-05-08 21:52:22] <law> yes

[2011-05-08 21:52:37] -!- wytze [wytze@deboca.xs4all.nl] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 21:52:38] <JanDittberner> IanGrigg: I think votebot has been 
pimped to allow private votes ... it also should count our votes in
[2011-05-08 21:52:42] <JanDittberner> #vote
[2011-05-08 21:52:55] <JanDittberner> ... crappy small netbook keys :-)
[2011-05-08 21:53:08] -!- wytze ist nun bekannt als: WytzevanderRaay
[2011-05-08 21:54:01] -!- magu ist nun bekannt als: MartinGummi
[2011-05-08 21:54:21] -!- FrancoisMarier [francois@member.cacert.org] 
hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 21:55:03] -!- MOH ist nun bekannt als: MarcOliverHofmann
[2011-05-08 21:55:41] -!- PiersLauder 
[PiersLaude@ppp121-44-175-42.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 21:56:05] -!- maguGUI [55b3ead1@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] 
hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 21:57:58] -!- PeterYuill [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] hat 
#SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 21:58:20] -!- mode/#SGM [+vvv MartinGummi PeterYuill 
PiersLauder] von law
[2011-05-08 21:58:21] -!- mode/#SGM [+v WytzevanderRaay] von law
[2011-05-08 21:58:46] -!- mode/#SGM [+vv FrancoisMarier 
MarcOliverHofmann] von law
[2011-05-08 21:58:48] -!- PeterY [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] hat #SGM 
betreten
[2011-05-08 21:58:59] -!- mode/#SGM [+v PeterY] von law
[2011-05-08 21:59:30] <law> can anyone see votebot in #vote?
[2011-05-08 22:00:45] <JanDittberner> no the bot is not there ... it 
does not respond to private messages too
[2011-05-08 22:01:03] -!- PeterYuill [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] has 
quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
[2011-05-08 22:01:59] <LH> Hi, do you all see me as Lambert Hofstra, or 
as LH?
[2011-05-08 22:02:06] <law> LH
[2011-05-08 22:02:29] <LH> ok
[2011-05-08 22:02:43] -!- LH [LambertHof@k30092.upc-k.chello.nl] has 
quit [Quit: Leaving.]
[2011-05-08 22:03:23] -!- LambertHofstra 
[LambertHof@k30092.upc-k.chello.nl] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:03:55] <MarcusMaengel> Hi Lambert now you are LambertHofstra
[2011-05-08 22:04:14] -!- mode/#SGM [+v LambertHofstra] von law
[2011-05-08 22:04:20] <LambertHofstra> ok
[2011-05-08 22:04:45] -!- AlexanderBahlo [teufli@82.139.196.202] hat 
#SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:04:48] -!- KurtAlbershardt 
[Adium@97-119-157-109.albq.qwest.net] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:04:55] -!- Benedikt [5dc7fe2c@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] 
hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:04:56] -!- mode/#SGM [+vv AlexanderBahlo KurtAlbershardt] 
von law
[2011-05-08 22:05:26] -!- mode/#SGM [+o LambertHofstra] von law
[2011-05-08 22:06:16] -!- Benedikt ist nun bekannt als: BenediktFrenzel
[2011-05-08 22:06:21] -!- law ist nun bekannt als: MarioLipinski
[2011-05-08 22:06:42] -!- mode/#SGM [+v BenediktFrenzel] von MarioLipinski
[2011-05-08 22:07:08] -!- PeterYuill [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] hat 
#SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:07:20] -!- mode/#SGM [+v PeterYuill] von MarioLipinski
[2011-05-08 22:08:26] -!- PeterY [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] has quit 
[Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
[2011-05-08 22:08:47] -!- aphexer ist nun bekannt als: AlexanderPrinsier
[2011-05-08 22:08:49] <LambertHofstra> Hi Mario, how much time do we need?
[2011-05-08 22:08:58] <LambertHofstra> And has anyone seen Guillaume?
[2011-05-08 22:09:47] -!- ThomasBremer 
[5d8349a6@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:10:32] -!- mode/#SGM [+v ThomasBremer] von MarioLipinski
[2011-05-08 22:10:55] -!- mode/#SGM [+v AlexanderPrinsier] von MarioLipinski
[2011-05-08 22:11:17] <MarioLipinski> LambertHofstra: no idea, depends 
on our members...
[2011-05-08 22:11:18] <MatthiasSubik> Do we start with academic 15 Minutes?
[2011-05-08 22:11:31] <MarioLipinski> No trace from Guillaume
[2011-05-08 22:11:38] <BennyBaumann> Make it academic 30 ;-)
[2011-05-08 22:12:23] <FrancoisMarier> what's the usual "academic" 
multiplier like? :)
[2011-05-08 22:12:39] <WytzevanderRaay> It's late enough already here, 
so let's not wait too long -- but not having Guillaume Romagny in the 
meeting makes it a LOT less useful
[2011-05-08 22:13:22] <WernerDworak> If Guillaume doesn't come. he has 
to obey
[2011-05-08 22:13:40] <LambertHofstra> Mario: what's the status on the 
votebot?
[2011-05-08 22:13:56] <JanDittberner> MarioLipinski: who could take care 
of the obviously absent VoteBot?
[2011-05-08 22:14:11] <MarioLipinski> I am trying to find the cote...
[2011-05-08 22:14:18] -!- PeterY [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] hat #SGM 
betreten
[2011-05-08 22:15:00] -!- PeterYuill [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] has 
quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
[2011-05-08 22:16:23] <MarioLipinski> Does anyone has a copy of the 
message with the source code of votebot?
[2011-05-08 22:16:38] <MarcusMaengel> Hi LH, Law how long should we wait 
for Guillaume
[2011-05-08 22:17:44] -!- PeterY ist nun bekannt als: PeterYuill
[2011-05-08 22:18:29] <LambertHofstra> Marcus: just getting the last 
bits done
[2011-05-08 22:18:37] <LambertHofstra> He was invited, as any member
[2011-05-08 22:19:51] <LambertHofstra> Hi all, I propose we start in 1 
minute
[2011-05-08 22:20:07] <MatthiasSubik> aye
[2011-05-08 22:20:52] <LambertHofstra> We have an issue with voting: if 
votebot is missing we can vote either public, or, if that's not 
acceptable, by sending your votes to a selected person
[2011-05-08 22:22:32] <LambertHofstra> Hi all
[2011-05-08 22:22:40] <LambertHofstra> I'd like to open the meeting
[2011-05-08 22:22:56] <LambertHofstra> This is a Special General Meeting
[2011-05-08 22:23:12] <LambertHofstra> this SGM has been called by the 
board, with the only agenda item being the appeal by Guillaume Romagny.
[2011-05-08 22:23:34] <LambertHofstra> We're currently working on an 
issue with the vote bot
[2011-05-08 22:23:47] <LambertHofstra> The votebot was going to allow us 
a secret ballot system
[2011-05-08 22:24:33] <LambertHofstra> However, in the absence of that 
we can do two things: either vote in public, or send votes to a single 
person, who then reports the votes.
[2011-05-08 22:24:37] <BennyBaumann> What's the current decision to be made?
[2011-05-08 22:24:50] <LambertHofstra> I propose to vote in public
[2011-05-08 22:24:55] <BennyBaumann> Is it to exclude him or not?
[2011-05-08 22:24:57] <MichaelTaenzer> Fine by me
[2011-05-08 22:25:07] <WernerDworak> I second public#
[2011-05-08 22:25:19] <MatthiasSubik> aye to public ... otherwise i 
volunteer to count.
[2011-05-08 22:25:20] <JanDittberner> no problem with a public vote
[2011-05-08 22:25:21] <WytzevanderRaay> No objection against public voting
[2011-05-08 22:25:29] <LambertHofstra> Benny: the vote will be the 
appeal of Guillaume against the ruling by the board, I'll explain later on
[2011-05-08 22:25:32] <MarcOliverHofmann> I second Public-vote
[2011-05-08 22:25:36] <MartinGummi> aye for public mode
[2011-05-08 22:25:39] <ThomasBremer> public is okay
[2011-05-08 22:25:44] <BennyBaumann> I object to public voting.
[2011-05-08 22:25:46] <MarcusMaengel> aye public
[2011-05-08 22:25:53] <PeterYuill> aye to public
[2011-05-08 22:25:59] <JSFrederick> yes to public voting
[2011-05-08 22:25:59] * FrancoisMarier is fine with public
[2011-05-08 22:26:00] <BenediktFrenzel> aye public
[2011-05-08 22:26:07] <PiersLauder> aye
[2011-05-08 22:26:09] <FabianKnopf> aye to public
[2011-05-08 22:26:19] <KurtAlbershardt> aye
[2011-05-08 22:26:29] <DorisSteinbichler> aye
[2011-05-08 22:26:37] <IanGrigg> abstain
[2011-05-08 22:26:38] <MarioLipinski> aye
[2011-05-08 22:26:48] <AlexanderBahlo> aye
[2011-05-08 22:26:53] <BenediktHeintel> abstain
[2011-05-08 22:27:08] <AlexanderPrinsier> aye
[2011-05-08 22:27:18] <JanDittberner> aye
[2011-05-08 22:27:40] <LambertHofstra> Ok, so far it seems the majority 
is fine with public voting
[2011-05-08 22:28:03] <LambertHofstra> aRE THERE MORE PERSONS WHO 
specifically want secret votes?
[2011-05-08 22:28:28] <MarcOliverHofmann> What has to be voted
[2011-05-08 22:28:31] <LambertHofstra> And if so, would they accept 
sending me their votes in a private message, with me reporting the result?
[2011-05-08 22:29:01] <LambertHofstra> Benny, would that be acceptable 
for you?
[2011-05-08 22:29:32] -!- MatthiasSubik_ [yellow@86.59.10.226] hat #SGM 
betreten
[2011-05-08 22:29:33] -!- MatthiasSubik [yellow@86.59.10.226] has quit 
[Remote host closed the connection]
[2011-05-08 22:29:33] -!- MatthiasSubik_ ist nun bekannt als: MatthiasSubik
[2011-05-08 22:29:35] <MarcusMaengel> Would it be for all then
[2011-05-08 22:29:39] <LambertHofstra> BennyBaumann: ??
[2011-05-08 22:30:50] <WernerDworak> Lambert, would you explain what we 
are voting for?
[2011-05-08 22:31:13] <WernerDworak> Is it the board decision?
[2011-05-08 22:31:16] <BennyBaumann> LambertHofstra: If the majority is 
accepting a public vote I have no specific reason to vote in private.
[2011-05-08 22:31:20] <MarcusMaengel> Lambert could you explain what to 
vote for. This is the matter of the the privacy problemm
[2011-05-08 22:31:30] <WernerDworak> Is ist the dismissal of Guillaume?
[2011-05-08 22:31:47] <BennyBaumann> LambertHofstra: I second 
MarcusMaengel in this point.
[2011-05-08 22:31:54] <LambertHofstra> Ok, if Benny accepts public, I 
prefer public, because it makes the decision process transparent
[2011-05-08 22:32:07] <BennyBaumann> ack.
[2011-05-08 22:32:08] <MichaelTaenzer> And what was the board decision 
Guillaume has appealed
[2011-05-08 22:32:09] <LambertHofstra> Then, first let me explain what 
the issue at hand is
[2011-05-08 22:32:34] <KurtAlbershardt> Thank you - this has been a long 
and somewhat drawn-out process and some of us are only peripherally "in 
the loop"
[2011-05-08 22:32:43] <LambertHofstra> A short summary:
[2011-05-08 22:32:44] <LambertHofstra> A complaint was filed by two 
members, because of the messages send by Guillaume to the various 
mailing lists. These messages were seen as inappropriate.
[2011-05-08 22:33:18] <LambertHofstra> This is a serious issue, but also 
difficult since Guillaume has contributed a lot to CAcert in a positive 
way in previous years.
[2011-05-08 22:33:30] <LambertHofstra> The board has reviewed the 
complaint, and ruled that indeed these messages were inappropriate, and 
are harming CAcert, CAcert Inc., and specific members.
[2011-05-08 22:33:49] <LambertHofstra> The board ruled that Guillaume is 
not allowed to send this type of messages in the future, and if he would 
do so in the future, he would be expelled.
[2011-05-08 22:33:58] <LambertHofstra> Now Guillaume has appealed to the 
ruling of the board.
[2011-05-08 22:34:08] <LambertHofstra> The single question here on the 
table is: do the members agree with the board decision or not?
[2011-05-08 22:34:21] <WernerDworak> agree
[2011-05-08 22:34:22] <LambertHofstra> So we're NOT voting to expell 
Guillaume
[2011-05-08 22:34:34] <MarcOliverHofmann> agree
[2011-05-08 22:34:39] <LambertHofstra> Before voting: are there any 
questions on this?
[2011-05-08 22:34:45] <JSFrederick> Do we need a motion?
[2011-05-08 22:34:54] <WytzevanderRaay> Can we only say "yes" or "no", 
or can we also comment or even modify the proposed board decision?
[2011-05-08 22:34:59] -!- PeterY [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] hat #SGM 
betreten
[2011-05-08 22:35:10] <MatthiasSubik> i would do the comment in a second 
motion.
[2011-05-08 22:35:16] <LambertHofstra> So I first want to open for questions
[2011-05-08 22:35:24] <BennyBaumann> notion in what respect?
[2011-05-08 22:35:25] <BenediktHeintel> what will happen if we vote the 
board decision as not acceptable?
[2011-05-08 22:35:27] <KurtAlbershardt> I want to clarify - are we 
voting as to whether his actions were inappropriate?
[2011-05-08 22:35:33] <LambertHofstra> Wytze: no, you can only say YES or NO
[2011-05-08 22:35:40] <MarcOliverHofmann> How about the moderated 
Mailing list access?
[2011-05-08 22:36:27] -!- PeterYuill [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] has 
quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
[2011-05-08 22:36:33] <LambertHofstra> Benedikt: then we have an issue, 
and the members need to come up with a new ruling
[2011-05-08 22:36:50] <WytzevanderRaay> That's pretty limiting, although 
I agree with the board's feelings, I do not think it is appropriate for 
CAcert to moderate access of any of its members to its mailing lists.
[2011-05-08 22:36:57] <LambertHofstra> Kurt: in a way: the ruling of the 
board includes two things:
[2011-05-08 22:37:17] <BennyBaumann> How much time for the new ruling; 
or a new SGM?=
[2011-05-08 22:37:29] <LambertHofstra> 1) the messages were 
inappropriate (no facts, could easily have been checked/verified)
[2011-05-08 22:37:55] <LambertHofstra> 2) the ruling: he's not allowed 
to do this again, and will be expelled if he does
[2011-05-08 22:38:12] <LambertHofstra> You've all received the exact 
text of the ruling in your invitation
[2011-05-08 22:38:27] -!- PeterY [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] has quit 
[Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
[2011-05-08 22:38:37] -!- mode/#SGM [+v MatthiasSubik] von MarioLipinski
[2011-05-08 22:39:16] <KurtAlbershardt> Trying to be evenhanded here, is 
there some way to prevent his expulsion by a single person as some form 
of retribution?
[2011-05-08 22:39:18] <LambertHofstra> Marc: That is the ruling: 
moderated list access. But this would still allow him to send incorrect 
messages on lists that are not controlled by CAcert
[2011-05-08 22:39:28] <JSFrederick> So, to clarify, we are voting YES or 
NO to the two specific items that Lambert just mentioned
[2011-05-08 22:39:31] <MarioLipinski> What I'd like to ensure is also 
that we do not hold another SGM about this case. We cannot hold a SGM 
every month, we have more important things to do...
[2011-05-08 22:39:54] <LambertHofstra> Kurt: can you please explain?
[2011-05-08 22:39:56] <MarcOliverHofmann> thanks
[2011-05-08 22:40:21] <WytzevanderRaay> OK, let me phrase this as a 
question then: why does the board think it is not enough to simply 
respond (like it did) to show the inappropriateness and/or inaccuracy of 
certain messages, and
[2011-05-08 22:40:38] <WytzevanderRaay> why does it want to block 
Guillaume's access to the mailing lists instead?
[2011-05-08 22:41:10] <LambertHofstra> (Wytze: I see the question, would 
like to handle Kurt's question first)
[2011-05-08 22:41:18] <KurtAlbershardt> "the ruling: he's not allowed to 
do this again, and will be expelled if he does"
[2011-05-08 22:41:29] <KurtAlbershardt> who determines that he has "done 
this again"
[2011-05-08 22:41:38] <LambertHofstra> Kurt: the board
[2011-05-08 22:41:39] <KurtAlbershardt> can one person invoke that?
[2011-05-08 22:41:43] <KurtAlbershardt> ah, OK
[2011-05-08 22:41:54] <KurtAlbershardt> I believe that clarifies it for me
[2011-05-08 22:42:15] <LambertHofstra> The ruling is based on an 
investigation of evidence, so if new info comes up, the board would have 
to look at it again
[2011-05-08 22:42:36] <LambertHofstra> JSFrederick: no, there will be 
one vote
[2011-05-08 22:42:39] <KurtAlbershardt> so this is, in effect, just an 
official warning?
[2011-05-08 22:42:48] <LambertHofstra> Kurt: yes
[2011-05-08 22:42:55] <KurtAlbershardt> check
[2011-05-08 22:42:58] <JSFrederick> Understood
[2011-05-08 22:42:59] <LambertHofstra> But also the last warning
[2011-05-08 22:44:16] <WytzevanderRaay> As I read the board's decision 
it is more than a warning: it takes away Guillaume's rights to post to a 
CAcert mailing list without consent by some (yet unnamed) moderator -- 
that's quite something.
[2011-05-08 22:44:18] <LambertHofstra> Wytze: There have been more 
messages before, and no response to previous messages to Guillaume
[2011-05-08 22:44:40] <LambertHofstra> Wytze: yes
[2011-05-08 22:44:50] <LambertHofstra> We still need a form to implement it
[2011-05-08 22:45:22] -!- PeterYuill [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] hat 
#SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:45:49] <AlexanderPrinsier> WytzevanderRaay: it is not the 
first time Guillaume severely offends other people and harms CAcert. He 
got away with a warning last time and there was already talks about 
expelling him at that time.
[2011-05-08 22:45:53] <MatthiasSubik> so we have one vote, if the boards 
decision was appropriate?
[2011-05-08 22:46:15] <LambertHofstra> The issue here is that the fact 
that we have a open community
[2011-05-08 22:46:35] <AlexanderPrinsier> WytzevanderRaay: This time his 
unmoderated access to some mailing lists was revoked, as he seems not to 
have learnt since last time.
[2011-05-08 22:46:36] <LambertHofstra> does not give you the right to 
just say anything
[2011-05-08 22:46:36] -!- dirk [dirk@ip-80-226-0-1.vodafone-net.de] hat 
#SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:46:53] -!- PeterY [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] hat #SGM 
betreten
[2011-05-08 22:46:56] <MarioLipinski> I'd say anyone could move a 
motion, as in every general meeting...
[2011-05-08 22:47:04] <LambertHofstra> This freedom comes with the 
obligation to investigate what you write
[2011-05-08 22:47:14] <dirk> sorry for being late ...
[2011-05-08 22:47:22] <JSFrederick> I motion that the membership 
confirms the
[2011-05-08 22:47:22] <JSFrederick> Â Â committees decision and leaves 
further
[2011-05-08 22:47:23] <WytzevanderRaay> Lambert: I agree, but is 
censorship the proper answer? That is the core of my question?
[2011-05-08 22:47:23] <JSFrederick> Â Â actions up to the boards 
judgement ( ie: no second appeal)
[2011-05-08 22:47:27] <LambertHofstra> Are there any other questions, or 
anything I missed?
[2011-05-08 22:47:42] <MarioLipinski> Also recently he has been called 
about his inappropriate behaviour on the lists... The response was just 
an escalation....
[2011-05-08 22:47:52] -!- dirk ist nun bekannt als: dirkastrath
[2011-05-08 22:48:07] <BennyBaumann> Welcome dirkastrath
[2011-05-08 22:48:16] <LambertHofstra> If no further questions I'd like 
to call for a vote:
[2011-05-08 22:48:19] <MarioLipinski> So for now we cannot just say do 
not do it again. We need some kind of punishment. But looking at history 
expelling him right away looked to hard.
[2011-05-08 22:48:31] <MarioLipinski> LambertHofstra: Proxies?
[2011-05-08 22:48:47] <MarioLipinski> SGM 2011-05-08 Proxies:
[2011-05-08 22:48:48] <MarioLipinski> Ulrich Schröter
[2011-05-08 22:48:48] <MarioLipinski> * Dirk Astrath
[2011-05-08 22:48:48] <MarioLipinski> * Philipp Dunkel
[2011-05-08 22:48:48] <MarioLipinski> * Dominik George
[2011-05-08 22:48:48] <MarioLipinski>
[2011-05-08 22:48:50] <MarioLipinski> Werner Dworak
[2011-05-08 22:48:52] <MarioLipinski> * Dirk Astrath (secondary)
[2011-05-08 22:48:54] <MarioLipinski>
[2011-05-08 22:48:56] -!- PeterYuill [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] has 
quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
[2011-05-08 22:48:58] <MarioLipinski> Markus Mängel
[2011-05-08 22:49:00] <MarioLipinski> * Ulrich Schröter
[2011-05-08 22:49:02] <MarioLipinski> Dirk Astrath
[2011-05-08 22:49:04] <MarioLipinski> * Ulrich Schröter (secondary)
[2011-05-08 22:49:06] <MarioLipinski> Wytze van der Raay
[2011-05-08 22:49:08] <MarioLipinski> * Gary Lee Adams
[2011-05-08 22:49:09] <MarioLipinski>
[2011-05-08 22:49:10] -!- PeterY ist nun bekannt als: PeterYuill
[2011-05-08 22:49:11] <MarioLipinski> Lambert Hofstra
[2011-05-08 22:49:14] <MarioLipinski> * Gary Lee Adams (secondary)
[2011-05-08 22:49:16] <MarioLipinski> Mario Lipinski
[2011-05-08 22:49:18] <MarioLipinski> * Philipp Dunkel (secondary)
[2011-05-08 22:49:20] <MarioLipinski>
[2011-05-08 22:49:52] -!- JSFrederick 
[JSF@c-68-54-246-9.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has left #SGM
[2011-05-08 22:49:55] <LambertHofstra> Ok, the proxies are listed here
[2011-05-08 22:50:00] <BennyBaumann> What happens if we dissent with the 
board's ruling? What has to be done then?
[2011-05-08 22:50:08] -!- JSFrederick 
[JSF@c-68-54-246-9.hsd1.va.comcast.net] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:50:31] <LambertHofstra> Benny: you should come up with a 
motion yourself
[2011-05-08 22:50:46] <LambertHofstra> and the board would have to 
decide how they respond
[2011-05-08 22:50:50] <LambertHofstra> Ok
[2011-05-08 22:50:57] <LambertHofstra> Please respond within two 
minutes, if you agree (yes, or aye) or not agree (no, naye) with the 
decision of the board
[2011-05-08 22:51:16] <KurtAlbershardt> here in the #sgm room?
[2011-05-08 22:51:16] <LambertHofstra> So AYE if you agree, NAYE if you 
do not agree with the current ruling
[2011-05-08 22:51:27] <WernerDworak> aye
[2011-05-08 22:51:30] <PiersLauder> AYE
[2011-05-08 22:51:30] <JSFrederick> AYE
[2011-05-08 22:51:31] <MarioLipinski> aye
[2011-05-08 22:51:33] <MarcOliverHofmann> aye
[2011-05-08 22:51:33] <KurtAlbershardt> aye
[2011-05-08 22:51:34] <IanGrigg> abstain
[2011-05-08 22:51:34] <WytzevanderRaay> NAYE
[2011-05-08 22:51:36] <AlexanderPrinsier> aye
[2011-05-08 22:51:37] <ThomasBremer> aye
[2011-05-08 22:51:40] <MarioLipinski> Philipp Dunkel: aye
[2011-05-08 22:51:41] <MarcusMaengel> aye
[2011-05-08 22:51:41] <BenediktHeintel> naye
[2011-05-08 22:51:43] <BennyBaumann> aye
[2011-05-08 22:51:44] <WytzevanderRaay> PROXY GaryLeeAdams: NAYE
[2011-05-08 22:51:44] <FabianKnopf> AYE
[2011-05-08 22:51:46] <PeterYuill> aye
[2011-05-08 22:51:50] <AlexanderBahlo> AYE
[2011-05-08 22:51:54] <DorisSteinbichler> aye
[2011-05-08 22:52:00] <LambertHofstra> AYE
[2011-05-08 22:52:02] <MatthiasSubik> aye
[2011-05-08 22:52:08] <MarcusMaengel> proxy Ulirich Schroeter: aye
[2011-05-08 22:52:10] <JanDittberner> aye
[2011-05-08 22:52:17] <MichaelTaenzer> no
[2011-05-08 22:52:22] <WernerDworak> dirl astrath aye
[2011-05-08 22:52:27] <FrancoisMarier> abstain
[2011-05-08 22:52:37] <BenediktFrenzel> aye
[2011-05-08 22:52:50] <WernerDworak> Proxy dirk astrath aye
[2011-05-08 22:52:51] <BenediktFrenzel> aye
[2011-05-08 22:53:07] <MartinGummi> aye
[2011-05-08 22:53:21] -!- dirk_astrath 
[4fdc9b0f@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:53:24] -!- PeterY [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] hat #SGM 
betreten
[2011-05-08 22:53:27] <dirk_astrath> aye
[2011-05-08 22:53:37] <LambertHofstra> Ok, voting closed
[2011-05-08 22:53:46] -!- ulrichschroeter 
[u60@p4FDC9B0F.dip.t-dialin.net] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:53:47] <LambertHofstra> Please allow me to count
[2011-05-08 22:54:03] <BenediktFrenzel> AYE
[2011-05-08 22:54:21] <ulrichschroeter> plz allow me to vote
[2011-05-08 22:54:57] -!- dirkastrath 
[dirk@ip-80-226-0-1.vodafone-net.de] has quit [Quit: Got to keep moving!!]
[2011-05-08 22:54:57] <WytzevanderRaay> Ulrich: MarcusMaengel voted 
already as your proxy ...
[2011-05-08 22:55:17] <DominikGeorge> huh
[2011-05-08 22:55:19] <DominikGeorge> tell me ...
[2011-05-08 22:55:24] -!- PeterYuill [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] has 
quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
[2011-05-08 22:55:27] <DominikGeorge> where are we voting? I am 
monitorin #vote ....
[2011-05-08 22:55:35] -!- PeterYuill [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] hat 
#SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 22:55:49] <JanDittberner> DominikGeorge: votebot is absent
[2011-05-08 22:55:57] <BennyBaumann> DominikGeorge: here in #sgm.
[2011-05-08 22:56:04] <WytzevanderRaay> Dominik: we were voting in #SGM 
due to lack of a votebot in #vote I think
[2011-05-08 22:56:18] <DominikGeorge> ah great
[2011-05-08 22:56:29] -!- PeterY [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] has quit 
[Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
[2011-05-08 22:56:38] <DominikGeorge> how can something as trivial as 
that not work .....
[2011-05-08 22:56:43] <MatthiasSubik> voting is in 'old skool'-mode ..
[2011-05-08 22:56:46] <DominikGeorge> ulrichschroeter, did you vote for me?
[2011-05-08 22:56:50] <MarioLipinski> i guess whole server down
[2011-05-08 22:56:58] -!- PeterY [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] hat #SGM 
betreten
[2011-05-08 22:57:07] <MarioLipinski> otherwise just cast your vote now.....
[2011-05-08 22:57:10] <ulrichschroeter> Dominik, no ... I just arrived ...
[2011-05-08 22:57:11] <LambertHofstra> Hi, I counted the voted (old-style)
[2011-05-08 22:57:12] <DominikGeorge> MarioLipinski , then why do't we 
run this thing on infrastructure or something?
[2011-05-08 22:57:29] <DominikGeorge> can't be too hard
[2011-05-08 22:57:32] <MarioLipinski> would require some time to set it 
up...
[2011-05-08 22:57:35] <LambertHofstra> I have 23 votes agreeing with the 
board ruling
[2011-05-08 22:57:46] <LambertHofstra> I have 4 votes against the board 
ruling
[2011-05-08 22:57:50] <MarioLipinski> I did not get it running within a 
few minutes
[2011-05-08 22:57:53] <LambertHofstra> I have 2 votes abstaining
[2011-05-08 22:59:14] -!- PeterYuill [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] has 
quit [Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
[2011-05-08 22:59:25] <LambertHofstra> Because of the high number of AYE 
votes, I interpret this as an acceptance of the ruling of the board
[2011-05-08 23:00:18] <LambertHofstra> We will give you an official 
result, but the distance between AYE and NAYE is so big that it will not 
change the outcome
[2011-05-08 23:00:34] <LambertHofstra> Thanks for attending this meeting
[2011-05-08 23:00:44] <LambertHofstra> Are there any remaining questions?
[2011-05-08 23:01:13] <MarcOliverHofmann> who gives Guillaume the result?
[2011-05-08 23:01:14] <WytzevanderRaay> Who is going to be responsible 
for the imposed moderation?
[2011-05-08 23:01:25] -!- JSFrederick 
[JSF@c-68-54-246-9.hsd1.va.comcast.net] has quit [Quit: JSFrederick]
[2011-05-08 23:01:36] <LambertHofstra> Marc: there will be an official 
communication by the Secretary
[2011-05-08 23:01:51] <MarcOliverHofmann> ok
[2011-05-08 23:01:56] <LambertHofstra> Wytze: we will think about that later
[2011-05-08 23:02:04] -!- PeterY [PeterYuill@212.253.82.213] has quit 
[Ping timeout: 180 seconds]
[2011-05-08 23:02:25] <WytzevanderRaay> Hmm, isn't that a bit odd? 
Especially considering the heavy penalty placed on the outcome of this 
moderation?
[2011-05-08 23:03:24] <MarioLipinski> WytzevanderRaay: everyone should 
know how to behave. The moderation is more or less just a protection to 
get again false statements published and causing further harm to the 
association and individuals...
[2011-05-08 23:03:25] <LambertHofstra> Wytze: if you have a solution we 
would be interested to hear it
[2011-05-08 23:03:30] -!- BenediktFrenzel 
[5dc7fe2c@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] has quit [Quit: 
[https://irc.cacert.org] (Ping timeout)]
[2011-05-08 23:03:32] <LambertHofstra> But I'd like to take that offline
[2011-05-08 23:03:48] <MatthiasSubik> If the inappropriate behaviour 
continues, do we have to meet again?
[2011-05-08 23:03:51] <DominikGeorge> I should give an info to the 
community about private mail I received from GR ...
[2011-05-08 23:04:06] <MichaelTaenzer> WytzevanderRaay: AFAI understand 
not the outcome of the moderation is under penalty but writing such 
mails itself
[2011-05-08 23:04:09] <MatthiasSubik> please Dominik ...
[2011-05-08 23:04:14] <LambertHofstra> Matthias: no, the ruling is clear
[2011-05-08 23:04:16] <MatthiasSubik> go forward ...
[2011-05-08 23:04:17] <DominikGeorge> We should all consider that he is 
using statements like "I want to clean out the community"
[2011-05-08 23:04:22] <WytzevanderRaay> I certainly don't have a 
solution for it, in fact it is one of my reasons to vote against the 
board decision -- going the censorship path is a very slippery road.
[2011-05-08 23:04:34] <DominikGeorge> At least all German people in here 
might remark something familiar about such speaking
[2011-05-08 23:04:56] <DominikGeorge> WytzevanderRaay, right. so the 
only way is to expell him
[2011-05-08 23:04:58] <WytzevanderRaay> Michael: the moderation is to 
determine whether an email is inappropriate. That is not always an 
objective decision unfortunately
[2011-05-08 23:05:11] <MarioLipinski> If a mail would be held back by 
moderation, this might be forwarded to board and result in penealizing 
GR as ruled - otherwise the mail would be published.
[2011-05-08 23:05:46] <LambertHofstra> Wytze: agree, we need to think 
about it. Could even be a "after-the-facts" moderation
[2011-05-08 23:05:54] <MatthiasSubik> @ wytze : I'm against the 
moderation as well, but I want to know what is the next step,
[2011-05-08 23:06:24] <MatthiasSubik> the explanation of mario is good!
[2011-05-08 23:07:05] <MatthiasSubik> an e-mail is going through, or it 
is the basis of further board ruling (so we learn about it from the 
protocol)
[2011-05-08 23:07:06] <WytzevanderRaay> What Mario does not explain is 
HOW the moderation will determine that an email is inappropriate
[2011-05-08 23:07:31] <WernerDworak> I see the moderation secondary, If 
Guillaume doesn' write, there is no moderation.
[2011-05-08 23:07:33] -!- BenediktFrenzel 
[5dc7fe2c@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 23:07:44] <WytzevanderRaay> And I'm afraid that there is no 
objective way to do that :-(
[2011-05-08 23:07:45] <BennyBaumann> How will documentation be done?
[2011-05-08 23:08:22] <MarioLipinski> If a moderated email is to be held 
back, this would require a decission of the whole board, which is 
published due to our open governance.
[2011-05-08 23:09:53] <LambertHofstra> Gentle men and woman, we're now 
drifting of, this is not the topic of the meeting
[2011-05-08 23:10:14] <MatthiasSubik> right ...
[2011-05-08 23:10:15] <WytzevanderRaay> Lambert: true ...
[2011-05-08 23:10:19] <MarcOliverHofmann> true
[2011-05-08 23:10:19] <KurtAlbershardt> Have we concluded our business?
[2011-05-08 23:10:20] <LambertHofstra> We will discuss the moderation, 
and will get back to you
[2011-05-08 23:10:23] <MatthiasSubik> chair .... call to order and close ..
[2011-05-08 23:10:27] -!- PhilippGuehring 
[philipp@chello084114212071.4.15.vie.surfer.at] hat #SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 23:10:35] <LambertHofstra> because this is an open 
organisation, you will be informed
[2011-05-08 23:10:54] <KurtAlbershardt> Thank you. I move that we close 
this SGM
[2011-05-08 23:10:55] <LambertHofstra> So I herby close the meeting
[2011-05-08 23:11:00] <LambertHofstra> Thanks all!
[2011-05-08 23:11:05] <KurtAlbershardt> thank you
[2011-05-08 23:11:10] -!- KurtAlbershardt 
[Adium@97-119-157-109.albq.qwest.net] has left #SGM
[2011-05-08 23:11:11] <MarcOliverHofmann> thanks bye
[2011-05-08 23:11:17] -!- JanDittberner ist nun bekannt als: jandd
[2011-05-08 23:11:19] -!- jandd [jan@pachesi.gnuviech-server.de] has 
left #SGM
[2011-05-08 23:11:21] <ThomasBremer> thanks to all - bye!
[2011-05-08 23:11:24] -!- AlexanderBahlo ist nun bekannt als: alex
[2011-05-08 23:11:25] -!- ThomasBremer 
[5d8349a6@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] has left #SGM
[2011-05-08 23:11:32] -!- MarcOliverHofmann ist nun bekannt als: MOH
[2011-05-08 23:11:49] <MatthiasSubik> k thx bye ;)
[2011-05-08 23:12:00] <DorisSteinbichler> bye
[2011-05-08 23:12:46] <DominikGeorge> huh?
[2011-05-08 23:12:54] <DominikGeorge> GR explicitly asked us to vote on 
his *expellation*
[2011-05-08 23:12:59] <DominikGeorge> we didn't do that :O
[2011-05-08 23:13:13] <alex> no, that was not the topic
[2011-05-08 23:13:26] <MatthiasSubik> GR can't make the agenda of an SGM,
[2011-05-08 23:13:31] <MatthiasSubik> it is not his party.
[2011-05-08 23:14:00] <MatthiasSubik> it is back to the board to do the 
business ...
[2011-05-08 23:14:48] -!- FabianKnopf 
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[2011-05-08 23:14:51] -!- FrancoisMarier [francois@member.cacert.org] 
has quit [Quit: leaving]
[2011-05-08 23:15:06] -!- WernerDworak [Werner@dsl72bA024.sdtnet.de] has 
left #SGM
[2011-05-08 23:15:08] -!- MOH 
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[2011-05-08 23:15:26] -!- BenediktHeintel 
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[2011-05-08 23:15:48] -!- MichaelTaenzer 
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[2011-05-08 23:17:05] <DorisSteinbichler> well the business of discussin 
GR mails
[2011-05-08 23:17:58] <BennyBaumann> cul8r
[2011-05-08 23:18:21] -!- ulrichschroeter ist nun bekannt als: u60
[2011-05-08 23:18:36] -!- alex [teufli@82.139.196.202] has quit [Quit: 
Wo sind denn die, die nicht da sind?]
[2011-05-08 23:18:37] <DominikGeorge> hmm, the community had the chance 
to get rid of him and failed :/ ...
[2011-05-08 23:19:30] <dirk_astrath> @dominikgeorge nope ...
[2011-05-08 23:19:34] <MatthiasSubik> now the board can decide that ... 
that's the way it should be. The board can expel someone, and we can 
approve or disapprove
[2011-05-08 23:19:34] -!- dirk_astrath ist nun bekannt als: dirk
[2011-05-08 23:19:55] <DorisSteinbichler> it is intrinsic of the 
architecture of the proposal
[2011-05-08 23:20:09] -!- BennyBaumann [root@box1.sys.ccs-baumann.de] 
has quit [Quit: leaving]
[2011-05-08 23:20:14] -!- MatthiasSubik_ [yellow@86.59.10.226] hat #SGM 
betreten
[2011-05-08 23:20:24] <dirk> the community had the chance to accept or 
reject the board motion ...
[2011-05-08 23:20:27] -!- MatthiasSubik [yellow@86.59.10.226] has quit 
[Remote host closed the connection]
[2011-05-08 23:20:27] -!- MatthiasSubik_ ist nun bekannt als: MatthiasSubik
[2011-05-08 23:20:47] <MatthiasSubik> bye everyone ..
[2011-05-08 23:20:52] <DorisSteinbichler> bye
[2011-05-08 23:21:09] -!- PiersLauder 
[PiersLaude@ppp121-44-175-42.lns20.syd7.internode.on.net] has left 
#SGM[Ex-Chat]
[2011-05-08 23:21:09] <dirk> GR did not agree to the board decision ... 
and therefore the SGM was called
[2011-05-08 23:21:25] -!- MatthiasSubik [yellow@86.59.10.226] has quit []
[2011-05-08 23:22:50] <dirk> nik?
[2011-05-08 23:24:47] -!- WytzevanderRaay [wytze@deboca.xs4all.nl] has 
left #SGM
[2011-05-08 23:25:46] <DominikGeorge> dirk?
[2011-05-08 23:27:35] -!- PhilippGuehring 
[philipp@chello084114212071.4.15.vie.surfer.at] has quit [Quit: Verlassend]
[2011-05-08 23:30:16] <dirk> yep
[2011-05-08 23:35:28] -!- DominikGeorge [Nik@merlin.naturalnet.de] has 
quit []
[2011-05-08 23:46:03] -!- maguGUI [55b3ead1@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] 
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[2011-05-08 23:47:18] -!- dirk [4fdc9b0f@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] has 
quit [Quit: [https://irc.cacert.org] ]
[2011-05-08 23:48:59] -!- MiGri [5b793edd@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] hat 
#SGM betreten
[2011-05-08 23:49:15] -!- MiGri ist nun bekannt als: Michael
[2011-05-08 23:49:21] -!- Michael ist nun bekannt als: MichaelGrigutsch
[2011-05-08 23:52:19] <MichaelGrigutsch> sorry, I wasn't able to connect 
until now. Everything is over?
[2011-05-08 23:53:02] <MarioLipinski> MichaelGrigutsch: yes.
[2011-05-08 23:53:23] -!- MiGri [migri@pier42.zeropage.net] hat #SGM 
betreten
[2011-05-08 23:53:31] -!- MichaelGrigutsch 
[5b793edd@CAcert.Web.Interface.User] has left #SGM
[2011-05-08 23:53:39] <MarioLipinski> The board ruling was confirmed
[2011-05-08 23:53:52] <MiGri> ok
[2011-05-08 23:54:16] -!- MiGri ist nun bekannt als: MichaelGrigutsch
[2011-05-08 23:54:57] <MichaelGrigutsch> Will there be a log of the sm?
[2011-05-08 23:55:01] <MichaelGrigutsch> sgm?
[2011-05-08 23:55:45] <MarioLipinski> Some day there certainly will...
[2011-05-08 23:56:49] <MarioLipinski> At least minutes will have to be 
presented at the next AGM, but usually they just get finished right 
before...
[2011-05-08 23:57:57] <u60> Michael, you'Ve got mail :)
[2011-05-08 23:58:07] <MichaelGrigutsch> ok. thank you.
[2011-05-08 23:58:17] <u60> yw :)
[2011-05-08 23:58:23] <MichaelGrigutsch> :)
[2011-05-08 23:58:31] <MarioLipinski> I was looking too, but on my 
computer I do not have a full log...
[2011-05-08 23:58:46] <MarioLipinski> I got them somewhere on the server 
though...
[2011-05-08 23:59:11] <u60> mario, you've got mail :)
[2011-05-09 00:00:43] <MarioLipinski> thx
[2011-05-09 00:00:50] <u60> yw :)
[2011-05-09 00:01:22] <MichaelGrigutsch> OK, good night everybody...